We grill her on recent course cuts, Kazakhstan, and her own salary.

Vice-chancellor, when you took over two years ago, you said: “Leaders are much more effective when they work collaboratively. That’s certainly my style.” Is it still your style?

Absolutely. I’m a great believer in participatory leadership. I think, unsurprisingly, that it’s a challenging time for universities, and leadership styles vary according to the context that you are in. But yes, collaboration is my preferred way of doing things.

Some members of your staff have said to the media that the opposite is true. They’ve described you overruling Senate rulings. They’ve said that your cuts have not come with enough consultation. How do you respond to the charges that you are pushing through these changes, whilst not collaborating enough with staff?

So, we’ve been through two phases of a deeply consultative process. So, my first year there was Y Sgwrs Fawr [The Big Conversation], where we engaged with students, we engaged with staff, and we engaged with stakeholders. I brought a longer copy of the strategy today. You’ll remember that while we were doing that, of course, the storm clouds were gathering, the financial pressures on universities—not just this university, but universities more generally—were gathering. So, yes, we are having to make very dif-
ficult decisions. But again, the consultation process that we went through around the Academic Futures consultation document, ninety days of robust consultation, and the document, the plans that went to Council did change because of that consultation. Those documents, that engagement, included Senate. We engaged with Senate a number of times on the way through. The final advice of Senate went to Council, along with the final plans. So there’s been a huge amount of consultation right the way through.

You rely on the Vision 2035 document. Is it not a contradiction to cite a document which endorses cultural enrichment, not only in Cardiff, but the whole world, then to decide to cut Ancient History, which is the cornerstone of so much of our cultural life?

So, again, the work that we did through the Academic Futures document took a good hard look at our portfolio, which is very broad. Cardiff is a comprehensive university. We made and consulted around some areas that are genuinely challenging for us in terms of student demand. That was not a reflection on the quality of the staff that we have in those fields. But the decision that we made is to wind Ancient His tory into broader Humanities programmes. So, there’ll still be Ancient History modules, but no, we will not offer a named programme in Ancient History, in part because the student demand for that named
programme just simply isn’t there any more.

And yet we saw a protest outside the main building led by a senior academic, Dr Lloyd Llewelyn-Jones. Are you sure that your assertion that it will not be sustainable is true?

The work done around the Academic Futures process was very robust, it was very evidence-based. I absolutely understand for colleagues working in those disciplines how challeng ing the last year has been for them, and I have listened carefully. I have been into that school personally, I have had those conversations myself, with impacted colleagues, as have a large number of the other leaders in the University. I absolutely understand how challenging these decisions are.

Returning to the theme of collaboration, you’re reported in Nation Online as having sent to colleagues emails describing their reporting (based on staff informers) as fake news. We’ve also had reports, not just to this paper but to other papers as well, of mental health strains on staff. Is that in line with what you say in Vision 2035? You talk about the University mak ing an ethical impact on Wales and Cardiff.

So, there are two points there. The first point being about some of the media coverage of the Academic Futures process last year, some of which was better informed than others. When genuine misinformation was being shared, we did our best to help people understand and set the record straight. In terms of mental health and well-being, yes, of course the university has been through a very stressful time. I understand that. We had been monitoring that as we always do, right the way through the process. You’ll
know some of the discussion again around that that has taken place. This continues to be actively monitored. There is a Joint Working Group in place between senior leadership and the unions where we are doing our best to manage—as well as we can—a very stressful time. There are all sorts of support processes in place for staff, both within the University and beyond. We are doing as much as we can to work through that process with integrity.

You’ve very correctly pointed out that the University is experiencing serious pressures. However, as a paper, we have had a couple of anonymous members of staff tell us that while the approaches are being made to find resolutions to problems, these resolutions are often being dictated from top down rather than from bottom up. Many have mentioned the Senate votes being overruled, and others have pointed to a lack of cooperation with the views of staff. What would you say to allegations that the process towards finding a resolution has been more top down rather than being led by the community, in which Cardiff University aspires to be?

So, it goes back to the opening question. Participatory leadership is not the same as running a university by consensus. In the end, decisions have to be made. Sometimes those decisions are very challenging decisions, as you have noted. You know, we are not the only university having to make really challenging decisions. Let me set the record straight: at no point was Senate overruled. Senate’s role was to offer advice to Council. Senate offered that advice to Council, entirely appropriately. That advice was robustly engaged with by Council. There is nothing untoward in terms of the process that was followed.

Almost as controversial as the course cuts have been your endeavours in Kazakhstan. What material benefits will this project bring to students in Wales?

So, one of the reasons I brought a copy of the strategy was to remind you that a small number of well-chosen, deeply reciprocal transnational education initiatives was something that came out of Y Sgwrs Fawr. It’s something that we collectively as a university said; “Yes, we should do this.” The initiative in Kazakhstan is an enormous success. In less than a year, we have stood up a branch campus that has 318 amazing students registered. They’ve begun their studies in a fit-for-purpose building. We have
enormous support from the UK ambassador, from our partners there, from the Kazakh government. I myself had the opportunity just a few weeks ago to meet the president of Kazakhstan at a forum where the forty international universities who are present in Kazakhstan attended. We were all invited to that because Kazakhstan is putting a huge emphasis and investment into building those international partnerships that will reposition Kazakhstan for the future. So, to be honest, I struggle with the criticisms of the Kazakhstan branch campus because, yes, there are challenges. There are challenges in every TNE [transnational educational] relationship.

You think about all the other TNE partners that UK universities have in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia and India, places that are also culturally and politically positioned very differently to the UK. That’s what transnational education looks like. We learn from each other. There are 600,000-plus students now studying with UK universities through transnational education arrangements. Transnational education is absolutely part of the future for UK universities, and I’m very proud of what we’ve done in Kazakhstan.

Vice-chancellor, those are good aspirations. We all understand the importance of being transnational. I think that’s a charitable interpretation of the political climate in Kazakhstan. But what material benefits will your time in Kazakhstan bring to Cardiff? It was reported in WalesOnline that some of your £40,000 expenses bill was taken up in flying you to Kazakhstan. It has taken time out of your schedule to go to Kazakhstan. What will those visits bring? What will that university bring back to Cardiff?

Already we can see the benefits that are coming as we both learn from Kazakhstan and Kazakhstan learns for us. The New Futures curriculum, for example, has been piloted with the Kazakh students. We will learn from them in terms of the work that they’re doing. We’ve just signed up to a United Nations initiative again that we’ll pilot in Kazakhstan and then bring it back here to Cardiff University. More widely already, we have, through the UK ambassador, begun to explore some of the wider opportunities for Cardiff and Wales that will arise through our relationship in Kazakhstan. Business-to-business opportunities, organisation-to-organisation opportunities. This is putting us on the map as a university, as a city, and as a country. Enormous benefits that will accrue as we begin to expand not just from educational offers, but also as we begin to build research connections, as we begin to build those civic engagement connections. So, there’s everything to play for here.

Would it be correct to infer from the choice to follow down this route whilst also continuing department cuts and restructuring, that the university and yourself are taking a position in which the internationalist side of the University comes before the affairs of the students on the home campus, which at this moment is the majority of the campus?

Absolutely not. We’re already a very international university. Many of our students do global exchanges. I look forward to the day when more of our students here in Cardiff are going to Kazakhstan and indeed vice versa. So, this is again an enormous opportunity for staff, for students, for our partners in the city. It’s not “either/or”. This is an “and”, where we will have—as we say here — very clearly by 2035, we’ll have a global footprint where we’re really taking advantage of those relationships for everyone who is part of Cardiff University. Cardiff University Kazakhstan is an integral part of Cardiff University.

And as an integral part of the University, it will have to respond to the new law in that country which is attempting to criminalise so-called “homosexual propaganda”. You speak a lot about the benefits of Cardiff University Kazakhstan, but doesn’t it pose serious reputational risks if you’re getting involved in effectively a post-Soviet authoritarian state?

Kazakhstan has not been part of the Soviet orbit of influence since its independence. And like devolution in Wales, what Kazakhstan is working towards is its own sense of identity in terms of language, culture, and economy. But just like Wales and England, sometimes there are complex relationships, with entities
based in different kinds of political settings. So, absolutely, I, like you, am looking in at that law. I have already expressed my concern about that law with the UK ambassador, with the minister for science and higher education, who is going to take it to the Council that—again—he chairs, that brings together all the international universities who are present in Kazakhstan. It has not been passed yet. You will understand that there are many groups in Kazakhstan itself who again would not want to see that law passed. Laws get passed in all countries through contested political processes, and that law is part of a contested political process.

Would you say, then, that the “anti-homosexual propaganda” law is part of a process of discovering Kazakh identity?

No, of course I wouldn’t.

Returning to your point on the comparison between Wales and England in the UK and Kazakhstan’s position. Would you like to reiterate that the relationship between Kazakhstan and perhaps Russian influence and the developing position of the state, can be compared to Wales’relationship with the rest of the UK?

I’m not trying to say that. The point that I’m trying to make is that Kazakhstan is a country that over the last thirty years has been re-establishing their own identity. This is a country that’s part of the historic Silk Road. This is a country that has a very, very long history. And I do recommend you doing some reading about that part of the world if you haven’t already. So, over the last thirty years, they’ve been working very hard, again, as we have in Wales, to reclaim their language. For example, one of the people who came to the launch with me was the head of our School of Welsh, and he made all sorts of interesting observations about the analogies, the comparisons, between language recovery in Wales and language recovery in Kazakhstan. That’s the kind of point that I’m trying to make.

Vision 2035 describes a greater collaboration with the student body and specifically the Students’ Union. However, in our first edition of this year [Gair Rhydd 1211], Maria Pollard, the Students’ Union president, revealed it took two weeks for your office to contact her after her election. Is that indicative of good engagement with the student body?

I have a very good working relationship with all the student presidents that I have worked with over my career. You’ll understand that student elections take place at a certain time of the year. Yes, ideally, had I not been on summer holiday, Maria and I might have met a little bit earlier in August than we did. I, then, was involved in some travelling, but Maria and I did sit down as soon as my calendar permitted. We continue to have regular meetings. She has regular meetings not just with myself, but with a number of other UEB [University Executive Board] members, including the pro vice-chancellor for students for education and student experience and the chief operating officer. Yes, I’m very aware that Maria did say that it did take a little bit of time, but I am confident that those meetings are in place, they’re happening regularly and we are—as we should—sharing good robust information from both of our perspectives.

Vision 2035 describes digital innovation and flexible delivery as a goal of the University. Despite that goal, it has taken some students up to two weeks to receive their timetables. Are you sure that the University is keeping up with its aims?

I think we all understand that the timetable was not what it should have been at the beginning of this academic year. We have a vast array of proof-of-concept work going on at the moment in the digital space. We have a new chief digital and information officer and that is part of the work that he is leading. We do need to take advantage of new technologies when they allow us to do things better. The student app is a really good example of that. It’s a good app; it can be much better. What sort of work do we need to do to really improve the way in which we deliver services both for students and staff? We’re a bit behind at Cardiff in that regard. We’ve got work to do, but the appointment of a chief digital and information officer signals our intention in that regard. You’ll be reading all the commentary around AI just as I am. Which poses questions, such as: What are we going to do as a university? How will we reposition ourselves? So, absolutely, we need to take advantage of new technologies and the new opportunities they offer.

What sort of proof of concept do you require to show that this new timetabling system isn’t working? It not only affected university classes but also affected a lot of student affairs in terms of society bookings around campus. What do you require and what would be the point at which you say perhaps this system isn’t working?

We know there was a huge amount of work that took place over the summer to try and address the challenges that emerged as we tried to implement the new timetabling system. What happened was they tried to digitise a very complex curriculum without looking really hard at people and processes. The lesson is that we need to look really hard at our people and processes, which we will do, in order to ensure that by Janary, we are not in the position that we were in September. But this is just one example of the many investments we are making into digital systems. At the same time, we were rolling out a new system around our research function without any issues whatsoever, which significantly improved the experience for all the staff involved. We all know in big complex organisations like this one, sometimes things don’t go according to plan—but there’s some great success stories as well—but the time-tabling issue is well known. We’re working really hard to address that, and we will be continuing to improve that experience for both staff and students in the coming years.

Looking ahead to the next year, is there something that we should be looking forward to in particular?

Well, I think the introduction of the Hwbs [Hubs] has been a very positive experience in terms of ensuring students can get responses to questions. We are investing very significantly. This is what the current professional services restructuring is about—moving to being a student-centred organisation. We’re very clear about that. That’s part of the work that we’re currently doing to ensure that the student experience here at Cardiff University, which is already very strong, continues to improve. I’m really proud that it continues to do so.

What other cost-cutting measures do you think will be necessary?

I’m not sure what you mean by cost-cutting measures. What we are trying to do is position this university successfully for the future. That involves us being different for the future. I’ve said that repeatedly during my time here. We are having to reposition ourselves. What we are not trying to do is just do the same
with less, which is what many universities are trying to do. What we are trying to do is reposition ourselves in ways that will make us hugely successful for the future, building on what we already have: an amazing university, full of amazing students and staff, and a terrific city, in a small and ambitious country. But how do we need to be different in the context of a world that is moving very quickly around us? We have to be different for the future. We have to keep adapting to those pressures as they emerge. Who knows what the Westminster budget is going to bring this week? Will it require us to make further adaptations, make further changes? We don’t know. Again, we cannot stand still if we wish to be successful for the future.

Would there be a point at which, in terms of the restructuring of the university, if say tomorrow there are increased financial pressures from Westminster, when your own salary would come into question regarding whether it is an effective use of university money, especially considering the fact that you live in a university house in which you don’t pay rent?

I have no say over my own salary. I think if you look at Vice-Chancellors across the UK, all of whose salaries are in the Public Domain. You can make your own decision about whether I’m value for money.

But I’m asking you, Vice-Chancellor, whether you think, as the Vice-Chancellor of this university, whether the money that you are earning is justified in a period of restructuring, and when you might have to make cuts across the university?

Well, I think you are joining up two things that aren’t necessarily connected. I am paid to lead this university, as well as I can, to that successful future that we all wish to have for this university. Part of that involves understanding how we need to be different for the future and leading on what are sometimes really challenging decisions, as we reposition ourselves for the future. That’s the work I understand myself to do.

So, would I be correct to say that you decline to comment on whether your salary is an effective use of university money?

No, I think I have just answered that question by saying this is what I am paid to do. As the Vice-Chancellor my job is to lead this university through extraordinarily challenging times.

And you are also reported as living in a house that’s reportedly worth around a million [pounds], which was described as “grace and favour” in the media. Would you consider selling the house or getting the university to sell the house to raise money?

So it is a university property. It predates me. The university has owned it for a long time. I do pay all the bills in that house as well as paying tax on that part of my package, so the idea that I live there, “grace and favour”, and free is simply not true. All of this is in the public domain. As good journalists, you should do your homework and understand.

Well, Vice-Chancellor, we have done the homework on the topic of the house. You are right to point out that you do pay the bills and you pay tax on the property, but that doesn’t necessarily extrapolate towards the normal living costs that might, say, be put ting pressure on academic staff here whose salaries are greatly, greatly smaller than yours.

Yeah, I accept that the cost of living is impacting absolutely everyone, staff, students, and, actually, the university more generally. For example, the money that it costs for this university to heat the buildings and keep the lights on. I absolutely understand that cost of living is impacting everyone.

And finally, Vision 2035, are you on track and do you think that it’s working?

I think we have made significant progress towards those Horizon 1 activities that we always knew would be the very hard, challeng- ing activities. How is it that we retain academic and financial sustainability? The university will continue to make operating deficits. The annual report for this year is not out yet, but it’s not surprising, perhaps, we continue to run a deficit. We are working hard towards being in a situation where we are delivering on the aspirations as set out in that. I think we’ve made good progress on Horizon 1, and we’re beginning to see good progress on some of those Horizon 2 activities, transnational edu cation, the New Institute for Flexible Life-Long Learning, the New Futures curriculum, some of the things that we’ve touched on in the conversation that we’ve had. So yes, there’s still work to do. We’re not out of the woods yet. But are we heading in the right direction? Yes, we are.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Interview by James Roberts and Ruaidhrí Gillen Lynch.

Thumbnail image: Keriemccombe via Wikimedia Commons.